As a Survivalist, your primary role is not as a combatant, but as a “Jack of All Survival Skills”. As I’ve said before, a Survivalist should be a jack of all trades, master of some (specifically the life saving and protection arts). A Survivalist needs to understand farming/gardening, animal husbandry, woodsmanship, mechanical repair (vehicle, farming implement, and firearm), and the technical/tactical skills of first aid (TCCC), extended wound care, coupled with the defensive tactics implementation of firearms, blades, and empty hands.
While this is an extreme type of activity while having a rifle slung on you back (most rifles will flop around on your back), the Keltec SU16C is light enough that it isn’t a problem.
Although a Survivalist should always be ready to fight after a SHTF scenario has taken place, that is generally not his primary task on a day to day basis. If there is a good possibility that a fight will happen, and it is possible to carry more than just a pistol, you carry a rifle, period. Carrying a full size rifle all the time every day is extremely inconvenient if your primary tasks are not that of a grunt, and you have a choice.
While growing up on a farm, I can tell you that if you are carrying a full length rifle around (us kids didn’t have handguns, but during hunting season we always had a rifle handy), you are always looking for a place to stash it so that you can accomplish the task you are involved in.
Full size long guns are very inconvenient to carry while doing everyday chores.
Although a Grunt usually doesn’t have a dire need for a compact rifle unless he is operating out of a vehicle, the parameters of what a Survivalist needs and can use can be very different. A Survivalist uses the type of rifle we are talking about for defense of himself and those under his care. While the combat rifle is EVERYTHING to an Infantryman, the rifle is only one tool of many to the Survivalist.
Enter the Compact Fighting Rifle (CFR). Having a rifle that is reliable, durable, powerful, and compact is a tall order. There are a few out there, but they’re few and far between. I generally will only use a system that has been adopted by a military with high standards (this doesn’t apply to .22LR’s). I’m still waiting for the AR-10’s to be vetted and proven reliable to my satisfaction (still a lot of the feedback has been negative), so I’ve never owned one.
A pic of a DSA SA58 (FAL) carbine I had back in 2002 during the ’94-’04 federal gun ban. No threaded barrel (integral brake) or folding stock was allowed, and this was about as compact as you could get with this type of rifle.
Others in the 7.62N (.308Win) category that I actually have owned and used are the M1A (M14), HK91 (G3), Valmet M76 (Finnish AK) and FAL, and I can vouch that, from my experience, they’re all reliable weapons with good reputations. In the last 31 years I’ve owned one HK91, one M76, seven FAL’s (of various configurations), and four M1A’s (of different configurations).
In the assault rifle caliber category, the majority of what I’ve owned were AK’s or AR’s with a few Mini-14’s and one Daewoo K2 (A Fed Ban model). I have had a dozen AK’s of various configurations, and a half dozen or so AR’s ( mostly carbines).
Although the M1A Socom in an EBR stock is somewhat compact, it’s loaded weight of 14.5 lbs. with an optic makes it somewhat cumbersome to be considered a “Compact Fighting Rifle”.
The US military has used the short M14 (16 inch SOCOM with Sage EBR stock) that weighs in at 13 lbs. empty, and is 34 inches long. The HK91 with the factory collapsible stock weighs 10 lbs. and is 33 inches long. The FAL carbine with folding stock is 8.75 lbs. (without rail handguard) and approx. 27 inches long.
In the rifles of the “assault rifle” calibers, you generally have the AKM and the M4 variant of the AR-15. The average folding stocked AK (7.62x39S or 5.56N) weigh in at 7.5 lbs, and is approximately 26.5 to 28 inches long. The average M4 weighs in at 7 lbs. and is approximately 33 inches long.
Of course we’d all love an SBR, but who wants to do that paperwork? Options in this category for the non SBR guys is the “Pistol” version w/ brace of the full size rifles.
In the bullpup category (all the mil models are 5.56N), readily available, military tested rifles available to civilians, are generally the IWI Tavor TAR-21 and X-95, and the Steyr AUG A3. The TAR-21 is approximately 26 inches long and weighs in a 8 lbs.. The X-95 is almost exactly the same. The AUG A3 is almost 9 lbs. with its optic, and a little over 28 inches long. All the specs listed above are factory tech specs reflecting rifles with no accessories and no magazine.
Although the Keltec SU16C is a lightweight and capable rifle, I would relegate it to the “Truck Gun”, or “Get home Bag gun” and not give it the position of “Combat Rifle”. Empty, this rifle weighs right under six pounds with the optic and is 26.75 inches long. The only reason I still have this rifle is due to it’s super light weight and compact size.
So what is available for the Survivalist in the category of compact semi automatic rifles? We are going to look primarily at side folding stocked rifles, and Bullpups. I have never been a big fan of the Bullpup design, but I know some people that love ’em, and have nothing but good things to say. In the following paragraphs, we are going to look at what the practical weights are of different rifles when compared to the caliber of the rifles being covered.
Probably the most popular of the semi-compact fighting rifles. The M4 version of the AR-15 is usually around 33 inches long (stock collapsed) and in this configuration weighs 10.5 lbs.
First up, we’ll look at some Bullpups to see what their specs are. IWI is a well known manufacturer and is known for it’s reliable rifles. Pictured below (rifles in the center and on the right) are the Tavor’s X-95 and the TAR-21. they are both chambered for 5.56, and with muzzle brakes are 29.25 and 28.5 inches long. With a tac light, IR laser, and Elcan 4x optic, the X95 weighs 11.3 lbs, and the TAR-21 weighs 11.75 lbs.
The rifle that is pictured to the left is an M1A Scout in a Rogue chassis. The overall length with muzzle brake is 30 inches, and with a 6x Trijicon optic, tac light and DBAL IR laser, this rifle weighs 16.3 lbs. (compact but very heavy). Both the Tavor bullpups and the M1A (not in the Rogue chassis) are considered to be combat tested systems, and although there are a number of other bullpups out there in the 5.56, the Tavors seem to be the most economical in the combat tested category.
There really isn’t any combat tested .308 bullpups available out there that I’m aware of (the Keltec RFB is not combat tested), but as I’ve said, the M1A platform is a time tested system, and it has performed well in the Rogue chassis through a number of tactical rifle classes for the owner.
Next up we have two folding stocked Sig rifles. One is the model 556, one is the model 522 (it’s the owner’s cheap shooting “training rifle”). The 5.56N chambered 556 weighs in at 12.35 lbs. with an Elcan 4x, Vltor bipod, and a tac light. Overall folded length is 28 inches and 36.25 inches with stock locked open. The .22LR 522 weighs 12 lbs. with a Trijicon 6x optic, a Vltor bipod and a tac light. Folded length is approximately 27 inches and 34.5 inches with the stock extended.
When this type of comparison is done, the calibers of the rifles in question are typically of the “Assault Rifle” variety. Although there are a number of compact rifles available in the usual 5.56×45 or 7.62×39, there are a few available in 7.62Nato (.308 Win). One such rifle is the DSA SA58 (FN FAL) Compact Tactical Para Carbine.
DSA SA58 (Para FAL) Compact Tactical Para Carbine with a 30 round mag at the top. AKM with Magpul Zhukov folder on the bottom.
Most will tell you that you can’t compare a battle rifle with an assault rifle in size or magazine capacity. Below are some picks of the FAL in comparison to a AKM with a Magpul Zhukov folding stock. The FAL weighs in at 11 lbs. with an optic, tac light, and DBAL laser. It’s overall length is 37.75 inches, and the folded length is 29 inches.
In the compact defense rifle category, it’s hard to beat the FAL Para or a folding stocked AKM.
In comparison, the AKM that is pictured weighs 10.5 lbs. without any accessories, is 36.5 inches long, and 28.25 inches folded. Here’s an interesting comparison. With a 30 round magazine the AKM weighs 11.75 lbs. and the FAL weighs 13.75 lbs. with 30 round mag. Normally, battle rifles use 20 round magazines, since they are the most convenient. Since people like to make the apples and oranges comparison with these two rifle types, I figure I’d show that the size disparity isn’t as great as some would have you believe.
The AKM pictured on top of the SA58 showing the size/profile is almost exactly the same, but the 7.62N cartridge far exceeds the performance of the 7.62x39S.
In contrast to the AKM with side folder shown above, this AKMS is a lot harder to put optics on.
The DSA SA58 Compact Tactical Carbine with it’s normal 20 round magazine weighs 12.25 lbs.
I mentioned earlier that you can own firearms that appear to be similar to the regulated short barreled rifles (SBR’s), but are actually regulated as pistols. I talked about this type of firearm in this post, and for the purposes listed here, it would be foolish not to consider a firearm of this type without serious thought.
Besides there small size, they can be carried loaded in many places you can’t carry a loaded rifle. The 11″ ParaFAL OSW pictured here is 23.25″ inches long when the brace/stock is folded, and 32.5″ long unfolded. It weighs 13.25 lbs. loaded (with a 30 rounder) as pictured here, and ballistics are 2325FPS with around 1800 FT LBS. with 150 grain Mil ball (I listed this because I was told it wouldn’t do any better than a 16″ AK ball ballistics. This shows that’s not the case).
The 11.5″ SIG M400 weighs in a 10.5 lbs. as seen (loaded) and including the DBAL. With the SB Tactical PDW Brace collapsed the length is 27″ long, and 29.5″ long extended. Both of these firearms have a Primary Arms Holosun HS505C solar powered red dot. The FAL has the short mount, and the M400 has the spacer on it for iron sight co-witness.
If you are looking for a super compact defense rifle, it’s hard to go wrong with one of the bullpups we talked about earlier, an AKM folder or FAL Para. There are a number of good rifles available to civilians these days, and the most important thing to keep in mind is that when you make your selection and purchase your rifle, TRAIN WITH IT! It makes no sense to have something for that purpose, but to not train and become proficient in it’s use.
This post is about being realistic. Be realistic in what you think you will be doing during a SHTF situation. If you think you will be running from firefight to firefight, like your Modern Warfare 3 video game, you need to read some of Selco, or FerFal’s stuff. Be realistic in the rifle you select as your “Go to gun”. A compact rifle for a Survivalist beats the Hell out of a typical full size Infantry long gun for all but a few limited uses.
Being practical, being realistic, and being ready is what it’s all about. Just like most people won’t carry their handgun if it is too large or uncomfortable for them to conceal, so to, the compact rifle will be carried more in a SHTF situation while doing the chores if it’s not a pain in the ass to transport.
JCD
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JCD – Great write up. Appreciate all you do!
Was at a training class recently and a few students brought AR pistols. They clearly suffered accuracy issues at even 15 yards. Wondering if you see this as a serious consideration for anyone making that choice; or maybe just a lack of experience with the system?
I’m not asking you to comment on this particular situation, but on accuracy considerations of a shorter barrel .
I’ve never experienced that with mine, or other “Pistol” or SBR variants of the short AR. As a matter of fact, a friend has an high (LWRC I think) end 8″ gun on a class 3 lower that surprised the Hell out of me. I was poppin’ 12 discs at 100 meters at speed, and it was like I couldn’t miss. He had a Ziess Z-Point and it was a sweet set up. I didn’t want that much velocity loss, and thus went with the 11.5 SIG.
Great article JC, while I appreciate the article, I seem to think of my survival weapons as simple rifles without all the war fighting tools. Guess I’m old school, a fine rifle with decent stock sights, and the knowledge of how to drive them, is my idea of a basic rifle. My idea of an upgrade is tritium, sight blades, for night fighting.
I’ve got many rifles with all the tools hanging on em, have learned the more finite tools I hang, the more maintance related kit is required. Add to the rifles weight screw drives, Allen heads, batteries, etc etc, it adds up.
Past few months I’ve been going back to simple rifles, very accurate rifles, out to 600y, with just the rifles sights. Although on the socoms, I did change out the front sight post for a match grade ” skinny” post.
I’ve been carrying one of my M1 Gurands, it’s not short, it’s not lite, it doesn’t have an optics package, yet I find, ” for me” these rifles to be dam near perfect for my terrain. The 3006, round will knock a man down one shot, or any other animal. Another rifle I,find myself packing around is one of my old 03a3’s.
The wise prepper, is the man or woman who can make any weapon available work for them.
Great article, a lot to learn from,
JC, I’ve been playing with a 5.7×28 pistol for about 1.5 years now. Can you do an article on these relatively,new pistols. 100y pistols shots are simple with these things. With 20 rd mags, I’d be interested in one of you here on AP, doing a review.
Dirk
Thanks Dirk. I agree that all your weapons shouldn’t be mil type, but one of the reasons I use certain action types is due to their history of reliability and availability of spare parts cheap. One of the reasons I’ve started getting into guns like the 11″ FAL or the 11.5 AR is because they are so compact, they can be strapped to your back (remember, the FAL OSW only 23.25 inches long folded), and I can carry something more versatile for hunting like my Savage 24V (.223/20GA), my .22LR Marlin 880SQ (optics) or AR-7, while still maintaining that ability to fight off an ambush by ne’er do wells. It’s all about options and seeing what works now, and what is more problem than it’s worth. BTW, I have been considering looking into the 5.7. As far as I’m concerned, it is a hot centerfire (reloadable) .22Mag,, and might have some small game applications in something like a single shot rifle or a boltgun.
The 5.7 x 28mm is a fantastic round. I have carried the 5.7 pistol on and off over the last 8 years. Great around the farm as it is lightweight and flat shooting. Add a 20 round magazine,(stay away from the 30 round magazines) low recoil, and you have a formidable self defense weapon as well. I was so impressed with the 5.7 pistol that I ended up getting a PS90 later on. Having a Bull-pup and sidearm with interchangeable ammo was very appealing. The PS90 has been EXTREMELY reliable with 3 different brand/types of ammo. FN blue box/FN red box/and the american eagle offering from federal. Turning the Arm into a SBR with a 10.4 inch barrel turned that Bull-pup into a whole new creature. (slave, begging stamps were grovelled for.) Talk about compact, WOW ! Standard 50 round magazines and a nice red dot or small fixed magnification optic and you have a real winner. It certainly loses punch out past 150 yards, (in my book) but I have never felt under gunned with that arm. It’s by no means a battle rifle, but I consider it more than a truck gun. If you already have your bases covered, it is a fun addition. If you are new to guns and do not own anything, it could be an interesting 1-2 punch for the first time buyer looking for carry and much more. With the right sling, the PS90 SBR fits under many coats well enough, and slung over the shoulder or across the back is completely effortless at 6 pounds loaded (without optic.) The 5.7 pistol also carries effortlessly hiking in the woods, working on the farm or running errands in the big bad city.
I know it’s expensive, and out of the reach of many, myself included, but my son has the SCAR 17 . Lightweight, folding stock, and reliable.
Uh….yeah…. If I’m gonna spend $3,000-3,800 on a firearm, it will be mounted with a pintle, and feed from a belt. Parts availability is slim and none, and it hasn’t proven to be any more reliable than the others listed, only somewhat lighter. To each his own.
The SCAR 17 is an excellent battle rifle. Mounted with an ACOG, it is a formidable weapon. I have never had reliability issues with the standard SCAR 17 and it’s 13 inch SBR brother (5000 rounds through total). I have even installed a handle defense lower on the standard SCAR 17 to make use of the SR25 magazines available to increase it’s capacity by a whopping 25%, from 20 to 25 rounds. It is one of the lightest recoiling 308’s I have come across and it certainly comes with a crazy steep price tag. Are there more affordable battle rifle setups ? Sure. Is the light recoil, reliability, and compactness (side folding stock) worth the extra 1500-2000 grand, that’s in the eye of the beholder. If the blue helmets were approaching my AO, I would not hesitate to have a SCAR 17 join me on my dinner card !!
Extra $1500-2000……? Uh, ok….
AR pistols (min of 10.5″ bbl) are a great lightweight options.
Though I will not run without a suppressor hangin off th end. That goes for all of my weapons. A mini or full-size can is a must for me now.
In a pinch though .. a non-suppressed 14.5-16″ AR lighweight weapon will do. Lots of calibers outside the 5.56 / .223 variety to choose from. I love the .277 wolverine (aka 277 wlv) personally.
I rock a suppressed .22lr cmmg 16″ upper AR platform for most of my outdoor ventures. I stopped a pitbull attack just the other day with that very weapon.
The best part of the AR platform is I can break it down & hide / conceal it easily in a backpack / ruck.
I’m considering a suppressor that will work on both the 11.5 AR and the 11″ FAL OSW. If and when the HPA passes, I will buy dedicated suppressors for a number of my firearms.
I’d be interested in your take on .. the you before and after you use suppressors all / most of the time.
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break
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My take is .. WOW .. just wow. (I’ll spare everyone my 5 million word reply.)
JC,once you go suppressed, its tough to go back!. Every M4 I own can be suppressed, I don’t have that many cans, but do routinely move the 223 can collection from rifle to rifle. It’s not ideal, but neither is 10/12 223 cans. ATF, just fucked us folks with ” Trusts”
For me to purchase further cans, ive got to NOW be finger printed, and pictures taken, of literally everybody on my Trust. Ain’t going to happen. Interestingly enough I was out at a range several months ago. Some ” folks” were present shooting their rifles with cans.
Their shit was quieter then mine, so naturally I wanted to know what brand these folks were sporting. Turns out they were shy, about their cans, and the subject got changed multiple times. I finally realized these guys were sporting home made cans. And they worked even better then my high end high priced cans.” gemtec” and ” thunderbeast” Could understand their,concerns, though, no tax stamp, equals jail time, and your kit seized. Was a cop for 25 years, saw many interesting cans,didn’t sieze a one of em.
I’m sure the stamps were left home, accidentally!. Stupid rule then, even stupid”ER” now.
Although I’ve only seen a couple of em, the “wet cans”, sparked my interest. Very very effective, for say a sniper grade rifle, not sure how they wold work on a machine gun, thinking the water/ oil.would boil at some point.
Anyways back to the observed cans, I’m pretty sure they were made,out of the older mag light casings. The 1.5 inch diameter and 1.25, not sure what the packing was. would be interested in knowing, just for fun. Both were 9/10 inchs long.
My set shoots our long range rifles suppressed, makes a huge difference. We don’t need Hearing Protection , although I,would recommend hearing protection. We don’t use it, but were retards!.
JC, would recommend you find a local who has cans, go,shoot with them. Literally a game changer.
Ive got two m4s set up for night fighting. My T-1 red dot is IR compatable, one of my PVS 14s, is capable of sitting on a TM-14 mount, directly behind the red dot, with a DBAL and a can, and you’ve increase your night fighting capacity max. Literally a force multiplier.
Unless your looking directly,at the barrel when the triggers pulled, you won’t see where the shots,come from.
I would not recommend the pvs14 mounted in front of a high end scope. Spend the money get the pvs22/27 for that task. The 14 tends to ” tunnel” a good optic, makes for a wierd sight picture. I’ve seen it done, even shot those rifles. Found it just awkward for me. Hey, who knows might just work for others.
If you were closer id loan you a can, but time, distance, world circumstances, preclude me from doing so.
I’ll be watching for a5.7×28 review. Bitchen pistol. I’ve recently scored some 40 g bullets, from AZ. 100y pistol shots are easy Peasy!.
Dirk
I enjoy the Kel-Tec SU-16 in stock form with an aftermarket 10 round magazine (30’s in-pocket) for a walking carbine. Light weight and a comfortable strap are important.
+1 on the FAL in whatever configuration. FAL makes the user strong and thrifty with ammo.
I’ve added the AKM folder to my long-term shopping list.
OT: Ruger Takedown with aftermarket side-folding stock is light/compact/fun.
Nice review. Thanks.
This is a good discussion. That said, one recent option that I think must be considered when analyzing compactness and portability in fighting rifles/carbines is the LAW Tactical folding stock adapter for the AR-15 platform. It is solid, is NOT a gimmick, and in my testing has significant merit for both standard barrel length ARs (eg 16”) and AR pistols.
They are a game changer for portability, with only small trade offs IMHO.
My main “go to” AR carbine and main AR pistol both utilize the LAW adapters. I strongly recommend they be considered for such usage as covered in the article.
Keep your powder dry (and your fighting rifle as compact as practical),
Atlas Shrug
AS, my problem with this ” folding stock system ” is they physically change the gas system on the m4. I don’t know if that’s a bad thing or not. Can a 6/8 inch recoil spring be duplicated in a 1/2 inch super recoil spring, I,don’t know, I set my rifles up using the VLTOR A5 recoil kit, springs and buffer.
Not cheap, however it’s a factor in recoil reduction. I’ve seen the 416s, and others with the HK style collapable wire stocks, to,shorten em up. And after reading your input now have reviewed the folders. Didn’t ACE stocks make these back in the day?
Please don’t take this out of context, after making a few entries with the mp-5s, the SD models, with the wire collapsible stocks, I went back to a full stock model. Then to a 10 inch,Colt commando model, I just shot better with the stock!.
With training each of,us can make any weapon work for us. I’m just not sure I need a shorty any more, I live in the high dessert, where volicity and a good shoulder wield is critical, to reasonable distance impacts. Where JC lives in the pucker brush and perhaps you, I could see a shorty, as working.
If anything my future m4 builds will be 18 inch barrels, maybe even 20 inch barrels, I need the extra volicity.
I considered these stocks awhile ago. I’ve come to the conclusion that Theirs some really cool shit available for these rifles, but I don’t need a lower that’s sculpted imto,a dragons head, and also functions as a beer bottle opener!.
If your in a position to drive a shorty, good on you. I don’t plan on kicking many doors at 62 years of age.. Those days are way behind me.
My question is really, ” how much is enough” are we at the funtional stage or are we at the KOOL guy shit stage. I think I know the answer.
Respectfully.
Dirk
I know JC’s rifles outfitted as they are are for the same general purposes, and I’m on the same page with him. That said, “….after making a few entries with the mp-5s, the SD models, with the wire collapsible stocks, I went back to a full stock model. Then to a 10 inch,Colt commando model, I just shot better with the stock!”
I had similar experience; back in the day (and I’m your age) collapsible stocks were for one of two purposes: Facilitate entry into small spaces (like windows) or for easier vehicle storage. Usually, it was the GAU-5A or the Remington 870 with the ‘over the top’ folding stock. Whenever we were dismounted, patrolling, or as soon as we entered a structure, all stocks were fully extended; we shot better and were more capable in performing our intended purpose.
Even now, once I get into the bush or where I might actually shoot in a ‘tactical training’ scenario, the stock gets extended. Call me old school, but it works.
Dirk – there is no change in the gas system at all, and it functions identically to the same gun without the LAW folder. It literally just adds a spacer to the end of the bolt carrier to effectively lengthen it. You use the same spring and buffer as you did before. It’s really, really simple.
It can be used on any AR – even your 20” barrel, even an A2 stock. It’s value is in folding the stock to the side to make the gun essentially just the length of the upper. Where shorter length for carry or transport have value, then the LAW folder is a game changer. Otherwise, it’s superfluous.
No financial interest, just a happy customer.
Atlas Shrug
Works for me. If your please with the fit and function, this chats over, your rifle, your set up. It’s been my observation that theirs so much poggy bait coming out for the m4 it’s mind boggling. When a product offers an enhanced benifit. That’s great news.
DTG, same o Same o. Several of us attended multiple mp-5 classes down in LA, a hundred years ago. Ex SAS fella,last of “Singleton” off of the Pagoda team, made famous by the embassy gig back in the early 90s. HK brought them over to teach LAPD and LASD, back then friends of,friends got a few of us ” northerners into the classes.
Both instructors were true artists with the mp sub guns. We learned a lot each training cycle. Even learned to shoot the tight sling system., it worked but I’m a shoulder mounted stock guy, I just seem to shoot faster and more accurately with the stock extended, and shoulder or torso mounted.
Pulling the stock into,my,shoulder is natural VS, pushing a short slinged weapon out keep the sling tight for stability. It worked but as time passed that system went the way of the dodo bird.
I remember seeing pics of the early Team six,shooting macs that way, but then I remember them shooting wheel guns as well.
Good chatting. Good night.
Dirk
Great points….
For those AR fan boys, please consider the Law Tactical Gen 3 adapter
http://www.lawtactical.com/ar_folding_stock_adapter_gen_3_m_p/99312.htm
The first and only folding stock adapter compatible with AR platform rifles.
The Law Tactical Folding Stock Adapter works with direct impingement or gas piston systems and fits A2, carbine, mil-spec or commercial buffer tube and stocks. It can be used with standard bolt carrier groups including: full auto, semi auto, 5.56 to .308.
The Law Tactical Folding Stock Adapter was designed for low profile transport of AR rifles in non-permissive environments. The adapter is ideal for any situation that requires a smaller profile weapon for transport and storage. Simple one-button release folds the stock. To engage, just unfold and fire. The stock automatically locks into place, requiring no fine motor skills.
Designed, built and assembled in the USA from CNC machined, 4140 steel.
The adapter does not affect gun function when unfolded in the standard fire position. The rear portion of the adapter is built to the same specifications as a standard receiver to ensure maximum compatibility. An integrated single point sling attachment point is included.
250.00 from Brownells
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/stock-parts/stock-hardware/adapter/ar-15-m16-gen3-m-folding-stock-adapter-prod71553.aspx
video in action
I’ll add my plus one to the Law folder endorsments. My 11.5 AR and my 8″ 300BLK AR have the Law Folder. I’m very happy with both. I’m running a Gemtech titanium Sandstorm on the BLK and a YHM Turbo on the 11.5 5.56. Eotech’s on both. While the BLK is hollywood quiet, the 5.56 is super sonic so not as quiet but the YHM still makes a big difference. I think in certain situations that could be very important.
Excepting the lack of available mags, any thoughts on the Stoner designed AR-180?
Was supposedly a good gun, and very similar to some other good rifles (K2) in function. Only shot one once and it functioned fine. I liked the integral folding stock.
The AR 180 are exceptional rifles. Very different then their brothers, the ar. I’ve got a couple of the early AR180s, the Costa Mesa made versions. Both are clean models and shoot well. I’ve heard rumors of trigger pin breakages, but have not experienced that problem, or any problems with the 180
The stock is on a ” swing gate” , and folds to the right side of the rifle, mucking up the BCG, hand engagement is not really a problem, like anything just takes practice. The 180 can be fired with the stock folded, if the 180 had a problem it would be a odd ball mag. The aluminum m4 mags can be molded to,work fairly simply with a Dremel tool. A simple cut needs to be made on the rear of the mag, so the mag detente locks in place.
Suppose one could mod a MagPul mag to work, I’ve just not done it yet.
The AR180s were produced in Costa Mesa CA, Sterling, I think is the British model, and the third was built,in Japan, and the names escaping me right now. Howa? Na doesn’t sound right.
Anyway the early AR180s are battlefield accurate, comfortable shoulder mounted. Have to admit, the folding stock is handy for transport.
The folder, is actuated by two indent pins, one on top and one on the bottom, perhaps a 1/4 inch squeezing morin will free the stock for,folding.
The ar 180 was the rifle in compitition with the AR m16 for our military rifle.”many think the AR-180 should have been chosen. Either works fine for me.
I find the bolt carrier group on the 180 to be a work of art. Very interesting in its simplicity. Eugene Stoner was a forward thinker.
I’ve not heard much good on the NEW version of the AR-180, but then I’ve not shot one either.
Dirk
Thanks for the reply…mine is a pre-ban Sterling. I found a pdf schematic online for converting GI mags, ad the old Thermold/Ramline mags just don’t work.
I did make a mod by drilling a hole in the folding gate, so I could put a sling at the fold point. This looks pretty good, seeing as the only other option for rear sling mounts is on the rear of the folding stock, and when folded, the stock wants to pop open.
Also put a small aftermarket pic rail scope mount on the proprietary dovetail mount.
I just wish the 180 took regular AR mags.
Thanks for the read,I get as much out of comments as I do the article, nice to get user reviews in article and comments that are not tied to a corporation ect. and really enjoyed the phrase”non permissive environments”,thanks to all for sharing their thoughts/projects.I feel the odds of the Hearing Protection Act passing anytime soon(if ever)are low unfortunately.
I think you’re probably right, but we can hope for it nonetheless.
Just recently we decided on a 10.5″ AR pistol as a more compact firearm since the side folder AK was just not doing it for us for the reasons you stated in the article as covered under ccw permit. What ammo would you suggest to use in it? Keep with M855, go with M193 or start stocking away the heavier 69/77gr BTHP’s for social ammo? We currently use wolf military classic 62gr FMJ as our training ammo but starting to switch to their non bi-metal 62gr FMJ as of today since barrels aren’t chrome lined and stock M855 as our social ammo. TIA
I’ve included the velocity chart I used to decide on what AR barrel length I was gonna get. It shows the difference in the different bullet weights you mentioned, and honestly, it’s not much, so I’d go with what is more accurate in your guns.
JH – I went with 77gr ammo as my “duty” load in my 10.5” barreled AR pistol (specifically IMI Razor Core – some good deals on it out there recently, especially at MidwayUSA).
My rationale: not enough velocity to make the 55gr fragment as designed, so I may as well get the best energy transfer, which means heavy bullets. YMMV but it works for me. (It’s also my go to load for my rifles sondouble duty is nice.
AS