The SPR: AR Guerrilla Sniper Rifle

One of the early posts here on American Partisan, revisited. The SPR makes for a great weapon in the Designated Marksman’s role, and as my Scout Course alumni know, is plenty deadly even with inconsistent steel case stuff to 450-500m. And coupled with proper training in the fieldcraft to implement it, you’re far more lethal than those running mag dumps for instagram thots. -NCS
Making the standard AR-15 into something more than an intermediate carbine is an old concept, going back to nearly the genesis of the weapon itself. It really hit its stride in the early 2000s with the Special Purpose Rifle (SPR) concept- a Small Unit level Designated Marksman’s rifle. It’s advantages are numerous; light weight, accurate and fast. While the original Mk 12 is a bit dated now, the concept of having a rifle that shares magazines and ammo with the other weapons on the team remains tactically sound and one that is particularly appealing to potential guerrilla forces, working with limited manpower and supplies. Among those of us that actually understand small unit warfare, the role of the sniper- remaining in the shadows and timing his attack when and where its most favorable to him- is the largest force multiplier. His weapon is just as important. The AR, when done right, can serve this role well.

The earliest SPR? M16 in Vietnam with Garand scope.

A Designated Marksman’s AR is a neat idea. It makes a lot of sense- even in its early days it was noted for its accuracy off the rack and in recent times, amid modern machining techniques and free-float tubes, its not unusual to see at least MOA-accuracy in even lower-end models. A one inch group at a hundred yards is pretty impressive considering that was considered match grade accuracy just not that long ago.
But the AR makes a lot of sense for other reasons. By the numbers, it is the most common rifle in the United States. In fact I’d venture to call it the world’s first truly open source weapon with the advent of small CNC machines, the proliferation of 3D printers and the sheer volume of manufacturers for every part a shooter would need in between. And while the quality might vary widely, quantity has a quality all its own. Second, because of the numbers, a team is much more likely to make it a standard weapon than say, an FAL, Mini 14 or AK. So the logistics of having ammo, magazine and parts interchangeability makes more sense. You can stock up on more parts and supporting gear that becomes standard across everyone’s weapon. Finally, today’s AR-15 is, at least in my opinion, the simplest weapon ever made to mount optics on. A quality scope, a set of decent rings or single piece mount, and you’re ready to rock and roll.
How Much Range Do You Need, Anyway?

How far is a realistic engagement range? There’s many other factors involved for a guerrilla marksman than simply hitting targets at extended ranges. Fieldcraft and knowing one’s enemy is more important.

A common complaint against the most common AR caliber, the 5.56, deals with carried energy at extended ranges. But at what ranges are you planning on engaging? Sure, it doesn’t carry the same energy as 7.62×51, but with the right ammunition load and understanding certain limitations its plenty combat effective. Within 300-500 meters, which is a near ideal combat sniping range in southeastern woodland, foothills and Appalachian mountains, the heavier loadings, such as 77gr OTM  5.56 perform pretty well.
Why 300-500 meters? For the guerrilla, one of the most important considerations that needs to be made on patrol is concerning indirect fire. In case you didn’t know, standing there and shooting it out with conventional or even special operations forces is suicidal. It doesn’t matter how many times you’ve rehearsed your immediate action drills, you have to always assume that the team you attacked has artillery and close air support. If its a Light Infantry unit, they’ll have mortars at the Company and Battalion level. 600 meters and closer is what’s known as Danger Close range. They’ll still rain steel on target, but it’ll take a bit longer to double check the calculations. But 300-500 meters is a happy medium for another reason. Panicked troops will have a much harder time spotting your team’s firing positions, and the hit probability from their weapons at 500 is much less than yours. The conventional Army’s basic rifle qualification is 300m, and often the 300m popup target gets ignored. And that’s out in the open. A guerrilla effectively employing the principles of camouflage and concealment is a serious menace.
The Rifle System

A Mk 12 Mod 1 in action.

The original Mk 12 SPR came with a stainless steel Douglass barrel with a 1/8 twist. The earlier weapon, known as the SEAL Recon Rifle, and the later Mk 12 Mod H, both had a 16 inch barrel for better portability. By the numbers, the most common ARs come in 5.56 equipped with 16 inch barrels. Even relatively low end barrels these days come in 1/8 and 1/7 twists, both lending solid performance to those heavier 5.56 loads. So while that 16 inch barrel may not be ideal for competitions, it definitely works well enough without being cumbersome in the field. Moving through wooded environments it’ll carry just fine. But if you’re into home building or are looking to upgrade your existing weapon, don’t skimp on a quality barrel. There is nothing that will make up for a poor quality barrel. And on that note, an AR being used as an SPR absolutely should be free floated. There’s no logical reason not to be, and it wrings every bit of accuracy potential out of your platform.
Another focus should be on a decent trigger. While the GI-spec trigger AR trigger can get better as it wears in, if you’re building the rifle from the ground up there’s better options. I’m preferential to Geissele, but Chip McCormick makes a decent trigger from my own experience and there’s several others out there that are tailor made for accuracy. I really like a two stage trigger to know exactly where it will break for a repeatable squeeze each time. But that’s me. As long as it’s consistent and comfortable for the shooter…its not wrong.

A modern take on the SPR, my BCM Recce 16.

Last, the optic can really be the deal breaker. One of the biggest advantages to the guerrilla is his ability to observe; a good optic enables us to observe our area in better detail. But too much glass is a bad thing for a lot of reasons, especially on a multi-role combat weapon. Originally the optic on the SPR was a variety of different Leupold Mark 4 models, most commonly being the MR/T 2.5-8×36. Anything from 4-10x is fine, as there’s a lot of good options. Personally I don’t favor any rifle optic over 10x magnification in this role. At 10x you still have a wide enough field of view at 300m to not completely lose your targets. But the point that a lot of shooters overlook is the value of a solid mount. You can spend all you want on quality glass, but if you skimp on the mount, you’re in for trouble. And if you’re not into learning how to read mils or MOAs, Primary Arms makes a very nice 1-8 with the excellent ACSS reticle.
Combat Effective for the Partisan
The world of the AR has changed a lot since the 60s. It’s changed a lot since the early 2000s and that much for the better. Between higher standards in manufacturing, the ability to make many components on your own and the improvements in ammo, the AR-15 has quite a bit of potential beyond the range toy that a lot of people own. A lightweight sniping platform in the hands of a solidly trained team is a lethal threat for an occupying force. Employing sound fieldcraft and proper camouflaging techniques, they are and have always been the most dangerous men on the battlefield.
 

Interested in training beyond the normal square range?

Spread the love
                
By Published On: February 17, 2021Categories: NC Scout, Weapons76 Comments on The SPR: AR Guerrilla Sniper Rifle

Share This Story, Choose Your Platform!

About the Author: NC Scout

NC Scout is the nom de guerre of a former Infantry Scout and Sergeant in one of the Army’s best Reconnaissance Units. He has combat tours in both Iraq and Afghanistan. He teaches a series of courses focusing on small unit skills rarely if ever taught anywhere else in the prepping and survival field, including his RTO Course which focuses on small unit communications. In his free time he is an avid hunter, bushcrafter, writer, long range shooter, prepper, amateur radio operator and Libertarian activist. He can be contacted at [email protected] or via his blog at brushbeater.wordpress.com .

76 Comments

  1. Matt Bracken January 10, 2019 at 07:50

    Any CW2 or widespread SHTF scenario in the USA is going to break new ground. Never in human history that I’m aware of have so many ordinary citizens possessed rifles capable of making hits out to 500m and beyond. And not only the ARs, I’m speaking of ordinary scoped bolt action deer rifles, millions and millions of them. How will occupation troops manage to patrol effectively without calling in airstrikes and doing massive collateral damage and causing numerous civilian casualties? My guess is that government forces will rely heavily on armed drones instead of boots on the ground to do recon. But in a SHTF situation, where the government forces are unable to patrol much beyond their bases due to a collapse of logistics and communications, where it is just rifle vs rifle, new textbooks will have to be written. Or maybe we’ll have to study the Balkan wars again. But I don’t think that even in the Balkans there was anything like the quantity of long-range rifles available at the outset.

    • Homer January 11, 2019 at 19:52

      Along with what Matt said. One thing that concerns me about the weapons and ammo buying spree Americans have been on for the last 10 yrs is this. How many of those people have stocked up on food, water filtration, fuel storage etc? Probably not many. When a crisis comes we will have lots of well armed and very desperate people and that will be Balkans x100.

      • Charles January 15, 2019 at 10:20

        Yes. I warned one of my more vocal anti American neighbors about that almost two years ago, They told me the Constitution was toilet paper and the Holy Bible was a joke. I told them what I saw coming even back then and made it clear we’d be on opposite sides of that fence when it finally came.
        Then they tried to walk it back by asking me “How do you know I wasn’t lying?”. I replied, “No problemo. I HATE liars as much as Commies and Muzzies”. Then I invited them to leave my property.

    • A.B. Prosper January 14, 2019 at 22:52

      I suspect starvation and disease will as always kill more than armed men. However the insane levels of population density along with high levels of diversity in some areas will make a hypothetical armed conflict resemble the thirty years war in its savagery
      My question is how many of those citizens are organized , actually know how to use weapons properly and are supplied enough to use them effectively instead of being a plinking target and free weapon pick up? An AR or a dozen of them are useless without good men behind the trigger and no matter how dangerous you are , against better organized guys even at the level of a street gang you are prey
      You might have ammo , skills and food galore but if you don’t have scary friends you are sport for the local Crips set, dirty cops, Antifa or whoever else has is not an atomized individual. Tribe up or die.

      • Reltney McFee January 25, 2019 at 12:33

        Disease has historically been the busiest of the four horsemen. Starvation, working hand in hand with disease, showing strong results.
        Any rational person prays that we never “clinically trial” this sort of SHTF scenario, the thought experiments are unsettling enough for me!

    • Charles January 15, 2019 at 10:15

      Amen, brother. I’ll be sitting out at 700 yards with my 30.06 Savage. One shot. One kill. Move on.

  2. Anonymous January 10, 2019 at 18:19

    5

  3. Devin S January 10, 2019 at 18:27

    Hey NC, good overview. So a couple honest questions (great, more Devin questions). For home invasion do you suggest an AR like say someone like Reid Henrichs? If so, do you have a different rifle with a different shorter range optic on it for that, like say a red dot? Also do you suggest a specific type of mount or a specific brand/model mount for that PA optic you suggested in the other article? I just have two cheapo SW MP-15 Sports, but I’ve been considering upgrading to the Daniel Defense DDM4 V5, which looks comparable do your BMC from what I read, any thoughts? I will say I hope I’m never in a firefight, let alone one close quarters indoors…

    • NC Scout January 10, 2019 at 20:54

      For a home invasion scenario (and I’ve been in one) the best weapon is actually either a shotgun or better yet, a pistol caliber carbine. It’s not that a rifle won’t work (it will in CQB, and from personal experience, quite well) it’s that 5.56 has a serious habit of overpenetrating. I won’t use it in a house unless that’s literally all I had. My own home defense weapon is actually a CZ Scorpion Evo with a Primary Arms micro dot. I really, really like that little system.
      There’s not a thing in the world wrong with those S&W Sport models. Not knowing the barrel twist on them, I’ll say that you should either go with 69gr OTM that IMI makes if you’ve got a 1/9 or the IMI 77gr OTM for a 1/8 or 1/7. It produces similar results to the original Black Hills Mk 262 and has a very good terminal effect. More importantly, it wrings every bit of accuracy potential out of your barrel, which is the real goal. I have a BCM for the barrel, but later on down the road you can buy a high end barrel to replace the factory S&W. There’s really too many good ones on the market today to name, but Douglas is excellent, as is Noveske.
      What you should do when choosing a general purpose optic is factor in the longest distance you think you’ll be engaging. For most people that’s around 200m realistically. Where I am in NC the average shots max out around 300m and those are in areas anyone with common sense would avoid, ie. cutovers, powerlines, and roads. We call these natural lines of drift. Taking this into account, you might not need much more than 4x magnification. Then again you might want a bit of extra for the observational quality.

      • Devin S January 11, 2019 at 00:01

        Oh man, don’t get me started on Scorpions, I’ve wanted one of those since they came out. I don’t know, that may be a good idea. I know someone like Reid Henrichs claims pistol calibers are more dangerous than 5.56/.223, but I’ve been skeptical, but I’m no expert. Thanks for the ammo suggestions I’ll look at those. As for the MP-15, cool, when I traded in my super heavy Rhino Arms .223 Wylde for the 2 MP-15s I did some research, Nutnfancy seemed to like them and he doesn’t like cheap crap. They are a 1:9 twist by the way, and I want to say chrome lined.
        As for my AO, honestly, it’s mostly forested, we do have distances to hills in our back yard (ridge to ridge) and open lands over 300m. But for the most part it’s all dense woods with roads, hollows, and breaks. Pretty much like you we have mostly conifers. Honestly by the time people come out the woods they will be in the 100m range in our neighborhood, we would have to go down our hill and stand watch down there to see people coming

        • NC Scout January 11, 2019 at 05:25

          While I’m not certain the context of the rifle/pistol caliber debate in houses, I’ll state that indoors ANY rifle caliber is much more dangerous due to overpenetration. It’s not even debatable, it’s science. But I also don’t suggest spending $800 on a Scorpion if that’s all you’re buying it for (unless you just HAVE to justify it somehow) and an AR is fine, just not ideal.

          • A Freeman January 11, 2019 at 19:14

            Actually, 55gr FMJ showed less pen then 230gr .45acp when fired through dry wall. Point noted, I don’t remember the study, I believe it was an FBI test from 2 decades ago. Box of truth might be a good source to examine. I believe it was something like drywall on both sides , insulation, and studs fired through into ballistic gel from 7 yards, w single digits for 55gr FMJ and 16 or so inches for the .45acp

          • A Freeman January 12, 2019 at 20:05

            http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15

            Not the same study, however shows the penetration of a .40 over .223 out of a 16″ barrel. Caveat, these may be environmental scientist that conducted it, I wasn’t there, and I have no doubts about a .223 through a vehicle where as pistol rounds are less effective. YMMV.

            The most impressed I was about a weapons effectiveness was a .5 moa 11lb SPR w a 20″ barrel, 4.5-11*40 Leupold w a UNS22, and AAC can on it. It was being used to place head shots on movers at 600yrds at night. Think of the psychological impace. You’re on patrol, hear a clap with no idea where it came from, a few seconds later as you take action, another comrade falls, or cries out. Let that sink in.

          • Veritas January 15, 2019 at 08:32

            Science has shown the 9mm out of a rifle length barrel tends to penetrate further than a .223 in home building material. Several article with actual testing exist, this is one: https://www.tactical-life.com/exclusives/9mm-vs-223/
            I often thought the opposite to be true until I started seeing the results of testing.

          • NC Scout January 15, 2019 at 10:16

            Interesting article. I don’t buy the results based on my own experience. YMMV.

          • Charles January 15, 2019 at 10:35

            True. My 7.62×39 will cut holes in 1/4 ” boiler plate steel at 100 yards with FMJ. In fact, even a .22 LR round will easily sail through walls IF no studs are hit during flight. It’s NEVER “safe” to fire a gun indoors. The problem is not being able to see downrange through walls. Hit something hard in that wall with a lower powered projectile and it may redound and hit you between the eyes, killing you. It isn’t just over penetration you have to worry about!
            A shotgun with the softest lead pellets available in BIRD SHOT size would be my choice. 1 -less chance of extreme over penetration. 2. No Dr. in the world is going to be able to stitch that wound back together in a million years, so…no witnesses to testify later a the kangaroo court.
            Did you know that just the plastic wad of a 12 gauge shell will kill a man over 50ft away? In fact, I put one completely THROUGH a deer at about 75 ft. away by accident. That was one God awful ugly hole.

          • Devin S January 15, 2019 at 12:01

            Thanks for the info, I didn’t mean to start something by mentioning the rifle vs pistol thing, I seriously was only mentioning what I heard. I’ll take your word for it to be honest. ;-)

          • NC Scout January 15, 2019 at 13:40

            You didn’t start anything my man, I’m glad people are asking these questions. ;)

          • SOG February 17, 2021 at 09:19

            thoughts on frangible ammo for Home Defense Magazines? rifle or PCC? i believe most hollow point self defense ammo is somewhat frangible as well correct? is this a good strategy to reduce risk of over-penetration?

          • NC Scout February 17, 2021 at 09:23

            Don’t waste your money.

        • rto-jerry February 17, 2021 at 08:49

          Great revisit article!! Sean from Loose Rounds did a nice blog in 2018 on the 5.56 round http://looserounds.com/2018/07/10/what-is-cover-in-your-home-and-will-it-stop-a-rifle-round-lets-find-out-2/

      • J.F. April 13, 2019 at 17:29

        Good stuff, NC Scout. I keep fighting with myself on adding a semi auto .308 to my “collection”.
        Im actually really thinking about just going with the SPR in 5.56 and a good Bolt gun like a Tikka or Savage. What rifle/ammo would you go with if you were setting up a bolt gun for a little bit longer ranges (say 600+ yards)?

        • SOG February 17, 2021 at 09:25

          Brother dont wait, just execute on it because Kamaltoe and uncle joe are coming for the 2A and guess what the FFL’s will do,comply because they are licensed by the beast. so please grab what you want now. the prices are never coming down and inventory is drying up.

  4. Terry N. Croup January 11, 2019 at 04:53

    I am not one to challenge Scout. The 7.62 is pretty popular all over the world it seems to me, so a guy would not likely run out of ammo. I guess 5.56 could be found plentiful around the world also. Nice discussion. Thanks, Scout.

    • NC Scout January 11, 2019 at 05:10

      7.62 NATO is my cartridge of choice. :)

      • Rich Young January 15, 2019 at 08:11

        I built an AR-10 in 7.62 with a longer barrel and scope for 600 – 900 meters. I’m gathering the parts for another AR-10 upper I intend to put a 16″ barrel on for closer work and switch back and forth on the lower reciever depending on the needs of the mission. For longer work, I figure 1 to 3 rounds and done.

        • NC Scout January 15, 2019 at 10:11

          Very nice.

        • Devin S January 15, 2019 at 11:58

          Are AR-10s worth it? I read and heard that they have a lot of issues. I would really like one, so I can have at least one rifle that is long range and isn’t a slow bolt action. I understand bolt actions are more accurate, but I doubt I’ll be splitting hairs and would rather have the ability for faster and less disturbed followup shots. If you do suggest them, do you suggest specific parts, parts kits, or completed brand/models? Again, I would rather someone with experience tell me, otherwise I stuck spending days combing forums and watching YouTube videos with several opposing views. I like my AK, but want all new furniture (not wood), a scope and all that, which is much easier to change and upgrade on the AR platform. Not to mention, if I’m shooting with my wife I want interchangeable everything, AR kicks less for her. But man she did well in a course with one of our SKS, even when the rear sight popped off and hit her forehead and she kept going with blood on on her face.

          • NC Scout January 15, 2019 at 13:45

            I will state very strongly that unlike the AR-15 in many cases, you absolutely get what you pay for with the AR in 308. The situation is a bit better today as far as standardization among parts goes, but the AR-10 has a wider range of issues that can come out of a cheaply made weapon. The M14 / M1A, to be quite honest, is the best way to go in a precision semi auto 308 if cost is the issue.
            As for the AK, you can’t go wrong with Russian polymer furniture and an Ultimak.

          • Devin S January 15, 2019 at 15:12

            Ah, cool, I’ve not heard of Ultimak before, I may be making some purchases there. As for the M1A, it looks like the new ones are comparable to a FN FAL which a lot of people swear by, do you suggest the M1A over the FAL for any reason other than commonness in the US? I never thought about M1As because I thought they were old collectors stuff like my old Mosin (which I’m honestly scared to fire again). I see they’re making new models and even all tacticooled. Of course in the $2k range I wonder if I could possibly by a quality AR-10? See, this is what the internet does to people, there are too many choices. ;-) I took an inventory last night, I need to remove some rust from a couple firearms (WA was humid and had to buy a heater for my safe to stop the moisture), re-blue, and upgrade furniture, it’s time I continue on the path a started a few years back and dropped for other stuff, without getting out of hand. :-D

          • NC Scout January 15, 2019 at 15:29

            M1A vs. FAL….oh man. You’ve done it now :)
            But regarding a precision rifle with the least headache out of the box, the Garand action gets the nod. And I say that not as a M14 fanboy- I carried one in a Sage EBR stock once. That was enough for me. But the polymer stock from Springfield ain’t too bad. The big drawback of the FAL right now is magazines and that’s a shame, but it is what it is. JC Dodge is really the best person to answer this question though, he’s owned several of both and is an FAL fan.
            Check out James River Armory. I may pick up one of their M21s this year.

          • Devin S January 15, 2019 at 16:28

            OK, makes sense. I had my eye on this new Springfield:
            https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/12583
            I’m a fan of composite furniture, the wood looks great, but I’m afraid of cracking and rot. Not that I would let it get bad. I’ve always like the look of the action on M1A/M14s. That Sage EBR stock does look pretty nice.

          • NC Scout January 15, 2019 at 18:12

            Wood stock and precision rifle don’t go together for the reasons you mentioned. The Sage stock is a heavy kludge. This option is better.

          • Devin S January 16, 2019 at 18:44

            Would you or JC Dodge suggest a particular optic for a 20″ M1A? It will probably be designated my “sniper” rifle. I’m a bit annoyed it does use a rail system for a scope but a side mount like an AK instead, I’m sure I could buy furniture to fix that, but I don’t want to go crazy buying stuff for it and modifying it beyond the original. I’ve considered getting one NV scope as well just to have the ability, but looks like I would need to spend $2k or more for something decent. M1A are definitely heavier, I was just looking at the specs.

          • NC Scout January 16, 2019 at 20:12

            The ARMS #18 is hard to beat. *If* I were looking for bang for buck while keeping an already heavy rifle from getting obnoxious, check out Redfield’s TAC-MOA 3-9×40. 1in tube and fairly light. I’ve been using one on my Mossberg Thunder Ranch 308 for over a year now. Very good optic made by Leupold in the US.

          • Devin S January 16, 2019 at 22:40

            Perfect, thanks. It’s annoying the mount is almost as expensive as the scope, but it looks solid and gives options. Well, Lord willing by March I will make the purchase, have to save up like a good boy. :-D

          • NC Scout January 17, 2019 at 05:08

            The quality of the mount is the most important part.

          • JC Dodge January 15, 2019 at 16:34

            Devin, are you looking for an accurate long range rifle, or a compact, “accurate enough at practical ranges” rifle. I still have a SOCOM and a “Stainless Loaded” M1A. The SOCOM is reliable, 33.25″ long with the SAGE stock collapsed, and weighs 13lbs. 3ozs. with just the optic. It’s a 2MOA gun. The “Loaded” M1A empty weight- 14lbs. 7ozs. with a Horus Vision Raptor, it shoots .5-.75 MOA at 600 meters. Loaded steel M1A mags weigh 1.5lbs. As to the FAL, both I have now are the DSA PARA (folders) models with AR stocks, a 16″ barrel and a 11″ barrel (legally considered a “pistol”). I use 20 (1.5lbs.) and 30 (2.5lbs.) round mags. The 16″ gun weighs 14lbs 6ozs with a PA 1-6x optic, SF light, DBAL IR laser, and 30 round mag. The overall length is 29″ with the stock folded. The 11″ PARA is 13lbs. 7ozs. with PA 1x optic, SF light, DBAL and 30 round mag and is 23″ long folded. Both are 2-3MOA shooters. I usually carry the 11″ PARA most of the time, and the 16″ PARA some. All are reliable.

          • Devin S January 15, 2019 at 18:52

            OK, good to know. I honestly would probably use the ARs or AK around the property and for most things, but wanted at least one long range rifle that can shot more quickly than a bolt action yet still fairly accurate and be usable for hunting if need be. I would imagine it could be used for area denial as well at long distances if the threat is identified early enough. The only large caliber I own is a Mosin and the thing is so old I feel like I need to take it to a gunsmith to check out and polish. The same goes for my old South American 1911 knockoff and SKSs. The last time I used it a round got jammed into the internal magazine while being loaded, the back end was sticking up in the air and we had to use pliers to get it out. I just want something modern, reliable, reasonably price (I know, I know), and semi auto. I like 308 since it’s so common world wide. I’m reluctant to buy old used surplus, but I know they can be restored by pros too.

          • Devin S January 18, 2019 at 19:53

            JC Dodge, for longer ranges (18″-20″ barrel) which rifle would you trust your life with? I’m talking accurate shots (2 MOA or better), semi auto (no wasting time with bolts), and 20 round+ magazine (no stripper clip garbage). I mean you obviously sound like a FAL guy, but I know everyone respects the M1/M14. When I look into the history of it all I want to like the FAL because the US military was being stupid by rejecting not only the FAL, but the 280 cartridge that was purposed. I don’t mean to start anything and I don’t mean to pretend to know anything, but I have been doing some research and don’t want to go too far down the rabbit hole. As for weight, it sounds like they could be similar. As for barrel length, for long range, I understand the longer the better. As for magazines, it sounds like 7.62X51 may be reliable in 20 round mags or less, but I wonder if polymer may work to reduce weight and cost. Anyway, any and all details are welcome. I want to be practical.

          • JC Dodge January 19, 2019 at 16:26

            When it comes to accuracy between the two, the M1A wins if you get a “Loaded” model or higher. Generally, Standard M1A’s (“Standard” and “Match” all have 22″ barrels) and FAL’s are 2-3 MOA rifles. The FAL has the ability to be made more compact than an M1A, due to a combination of short barrel length and folding stock, but folding stocks/collapsible stocks are available for M1A’s, and you can go down to a 16″ barrel. In the end, if you want a high degree of accuracy, go with an M1A “loaded” model (cheapest of their “Match” rifles) and get a Smith Ent. mount. As to the 18″ vs. 20″ barrel question, 18’s are generally more accurate when it comes to group size, because they are stiffer, but the longer barrels are better for long range performance due to a higher velocity. The main question is still, what is the furthest, PRACTICAL distance you think you will have to shoot, then practice shooting 200 meters beyond that distance to hone your skill for the closer, practical shots.

          • Georgiaboy61 January 30, 2019 at 23:45

            Bassett Machine – a small machine-shop in Texas – makes the excellent Bassett Machine M1A scope mount, which is side-mounting and true zero-hold. Versions with an M1913 P-rail are available. Your mount includes an ingenious yet simple torque wrench for affixing the mount to your M1A. I’ve owned one for years and it is a top-quality bit of kit. They’re good people and stand behind their problem in the unlikely event there is any problem. Many M1A owners like a cheek rest once they scope their rifles, in order to get properly behind the optic and in the eye box of the scope with the proper relief. Far as an optic goes, for precision work, a Leupold Mk. LR/T 3.5-10×40 w/ ill. mil-dot will work. For a more DMR-type set-up, Primary Arms 4-14×44 HUD DMR FFP with ACSS.
            Join the discussion…

          • Georgiaboy61 January 30, 2019 at 23:53

            @ JC Dodge – Any recommendations for an experienced shooter and outdoorsman who’s owned a lot of different models of firearms, but never a FAL pattern rifle? I’d like to jump into that pool, but uncertain of which brand to get, inch versus metric, and so on. DS Arms would have been my go-to, but have heard rum-int. concerning QC problems over there, so not sure of their status. I’m not against assembling the parts plus an IMBEL or Coonan Receiver and having someone qualified built me one…. I’ve done some gunsmithing but never a FAL so I’m probably letting the pros handle it this go-round. Thanks in advance…. oh, and are mags tough to find?
            Join the discussion…

          • Georgiaboy61 January 30, 2019 at 23:07

            Choose whatever platform makes sense for you, ad fits your preferences as to weight, balance, comfort and other factors. The M1A platform is well-proven, reliable, accurate and hard-hitting. It is also available in various configurations and barrel lengths, from 16-inch carbines to 22-inch rifles. What is the intended purpose of the rifle? At what range will it be most-used? What type of ammunition to you plan to use – not just type, but weight in grains? Springfield Armory Inc. make M1As, but so do Fulton Armory, LRB, and James River Armory – who also make excellent M-14-pattern semi-automatic rifles.
            Don’t neglect to think about the availability of spare parts and magazines. M1A/M14 magazines are readily available, albeit a bit pricey @ ~ $35-40 each.
            AR10-type rifles- also called AR-308 rifles – are quite common today, but have nothing like the standardization seen in AR15 platforms. (continued pt. 2)
            Join the discussion…

          • Drake January 15, 2019 at 15:22

            Agreed – the Springfield is better than any AR-10 I’ve seen. The PTR91 clones are good too – very robust design. Just get the 18″ or longer barrel or it can be unpleasant to shoot.

          • Georgiaboy61 January 30, 2019 at 23:23

            The PTR-91 GI-R is a rugged beast of a rifle. The CETME/G3 design is legendarily tough and will continue to function under conditions which would disable a lesser rifle. They are also famed for their ability to run dirty or fouled. That’s not a recommendation to neglect maintenance, just one aspect of its reputation. The GI-R model has a P-rail receiver so mounting an optic is easy. You’ll probably want to since the iron sights are mediocre. The factory trigger isn’t much – but the barrels are usually pretty good, so they’re usually accurate. Ergonomics stink; charging handle is in an awkward place and there is no last-shot hold open. Safety and mag release are too far away. Stout recoil due to roller-delayed blowback operation. Surplus mags cheap – $5 each – and easy to find. They’re good rifles – but built like tanks and heavy. Tough on brass, if you care and happen to reload. Some people love ’em, some don’t….
            Join the discussion…

          • jackalope May 14, 2019 at 14:55

            Bill Springfield trigger job on the PTR makes all the difference in the world. Inexpensive with fast turnaround. $69 well spent. I bought mags when they were going for a buck apiece. I have a lifetime supply now. The newer models have gotten better. Paddle mag release, 5/8×24 muzzle threads, the rail you mentioned. I put an HK21 charging handle on mine. More to grab there. Mine has a Trijicon TA-24 1-4x with a Bobro mount. I’m thinking of switching to a 1-6x or 1-8x scope. My eyes aren’t what they used to be. One of the things that doesn’t get mentioned much about these rifles is how well they run using cheap steel case ammo. I like the good stuff as much as the next guy but, sometimes blazing away on a budget is a good thing.

          • MTHead February 17, 2021 at 14:03

            If one has need of longer range/power of the 308. The best option is Patriot Ordinance Factory, POF P-308. Will out shoot anything on the market. Short-stroke gas piston. Super hard barrel. Ambi. all round. And uses magpul/ SR-25 pattern mags. And comes with a good trigger out of the box. If you can afford it. Their one of the best engineered rifles ever built.

      • Charles January 15, 2019 at 10:46

        7.62×39 is mine. I prefer to take my ammo from my dead enemies, not my comrades. And you’ll notice there is no charging handle on an AK 47. Kalashnikov is a much more robust design with their rotating bolt. It is virtually proof against mud and sand.

        • NC Scout January 15, 2019 at 11:43

          Huge fan of the AK also ;)

          • Charles January 15, 2019 at 12:03

            Great to meet a level headed gun owner. I’m a huge fan of all things that go boom. Often times such bold declarations as ours quickly devolve into meaningless argument. As a neighbor to your north, we might even have occasion to work some of the same ground on the border in the future.
            May you arrive in heaven a half hour before the Devil knows you’re dead!

        • MTHead February 17, 2021 at 13:43

          Actually their not. AK’s, once that giant safety side port has been opened will fill with sand and choke your gun to a club in nothing flat. AR’s, even with the dust cover open will only allow small particles in. Which in most cases won’t stop the hammer from dropping. Firing and clearing.
          Sand in the trigger/hammer area is a monster problem for AK’s.

          • NC Scout February 17, 2021 at 14:30

            Eh, not really. Been there, done that.

      • Archangel April 28, 2019 at 13:09

        No debate on calibers from me
        I love them all, but my long range rifle is a fine M38 swede with timney target trigger in the venerable 6.5 x 55 i just love that old gun and I reload for it so my logistics for that caliber a better than average,
        If i live that long in the sportiness I’m sure ill have plenty of choices lying around for resupply.
        if i don’t well by all means enjoy my rifle

        • rto-jerry February 17, 2021 at 08:09

          “Beware the man with one gun. He can probably use it”. Jeff Cooper Am a blessed man to rub elbows with couple of the finest shooters of the same platform.

  5. Anonymous January 11, 2019 at 11:41

    3.5

  6. A Freeman January 11, 2019 at 19:24

    A thought on the “anemic” .556, there may be a higher cost if the intended taget is reduced and not eliminated tying up more resources, causing psychological fear of terrible wounds, etc. Treating a barely alive, or viable patient is an expensive endeavor when compared to resources spent on the eliminated. I’m pretty sure commies don’t have SGLI, although they might see triage differently then we do at the moment, in atrition though, psychological victory may be a better option to strive for, as we are few and the Bolsheviks are growing.

    • JC Dodge January 13, 2019 at 09:46

      I would tend to agree with you about tying up resources if we believed this was going to be a quasi conventional fight. More than likely, it will not be along those lines. In my opinion, being engaged by gang bangers working for the local warlord, will be more realistic than a fight with conventional military troops supported by casevac and possessing a “Give a Damn” for their Brothers in Arms. Putting them down with a minimum of follow up shooting is the goal. Primarily, because they are no longer a threat. Secondarily because you do not have a logistics train supplying you with the “forever” ammo a gov entity delivers via helo or truck.

      • Charles January 15, 2019 at 10:52

        Never underestimate the power of psychological trauma caused by seeing your comrades internal organs splattered all over your $500 Nike’s! Turn one of those rioters inside out with a single shot and I promise you the rest will lose interest and look for easier pickings down the road.

  7. NC Scout January 13, 2019 at 20:05

    5

  8. Drake January 15, 2019 at 08:11

    Here’s where Army and Marine training parts ways (I did time in both). In the Marines, we shot M16A2/4’s at 500 yards. The 20″ barrel never felt cumbersome to me, it was what I was used to and what the original 5.56 rounds were designed for. In the Army it was pop-ups and quick engagements. As you mentioned, many soldiers conserve rounds and don’t bother shooting at the 300 yards targets.

    • NC Scout January 15, 2019 at 10:11

      Yup. I have always felt the USMC’s Rifle Qualification was a better standard. The Army’s is based around combat efficiency- not accuracy.

  9. Ray January 15, 2019 at 15:02

    Because most patriots will start out with 5.56 or 7.62X39 the cost in blood will be astronomical at first. Much like the IRA “gunfighter” or “cowboy” period. It won’t take long at all for the better shots, and survivors to grab up all the deer rifles they can get and start a selected target program. And I agree with the comment about the .GOV using drone/air strikes on civilian targets. They will from the outset. It is the whole reason for the robotic strike fighter.

    • Rooster June 23, 2019 at 23:23

      Plus 2 Ray. My Ruger American in .308 topped with a Vortex 3×9 will do just fine, especially when flanked by my 2 sons with well worn 5.56 AR and neighbors similarly equipped. Vermin won’t be warned twice. Stay out of my garden!

      • NC Scout June 24, 2019 at 08:45

        Very nice rifle, especially at its deceptively low price.

  10. Joe April 14, 2019 at 23:11

    NC Scout, how is the SPR MK12 platform outdated?

    • NC Scout April 15, 2019 at 21:09

      There’s much better rail interface systems out now, the options for suppressors are far more broad than they were in the late 90s-early 00s, as are the options for optics. The world of the AR is so much bigger and better today than it was then.
      As for the idea behind the platform, that’s very much still relevant and probably the best bet for most.

  11. trickworm August 13, 2019 at 04:37

    I’m no expert, nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn express last night, but I did attend USN gunnery “A” school up at ole Great Lakes(Acing it by the way, earning my ticket into Missle “C” school). “A” school lasted just under a year. Three weeks of that was devoted to projectile ballistics. We spent a whole day watching the instructor swoon as he lovingly displayed his fan boy creds on John Moses Browning and the .45 ACP round, which had gripped his life since he was a young 18 year old gunners mate when the 1911 and the .45 acp hit the scene.
    Anyway, much as I love firearms, explosives, etc., that was more ballistics than I ever wanted to learn. Funny, I dont remember learning much in high school that I now remember in detail, but most of those classes at gunnery school are imprinted in my mind like they a youtube video.
    Now, most of y’all assume that just because the ak round is bigger than the 5.56, it will cause more damage.
    All variables aside, that just isn’t true.
    When we shoot someone, we want to impart as much of the kinetic energy of the projectile into the person we are shooting as possible.Just because on paper your round imparts X amount of muzzle energy with an X grain projectile does not mean all that energy will be transfered into the body of the target. Far from it.
    Kinetic energy can be figured using this formula:
    KE = ½ M (V1-V2)2
    Breaking this equation down into its components, we have kinetic energy (KE) influenced by the mass (M) of the penetrating missile, as well as the velocity (V) of the missile. This makes sense; it is logical that a heavier, faster missile will do more damage than a lighter, slower missile. What is important to understand is the relative influence that mass and velocity have on kinetic energy, as this is key to understanding why I’d rather be shot with an AK than with an M4.
    You’ll notice that the mass component of the KE equation is halved, whereas the velocity component is squared. For this reason, the velocity of the projectile has far more bearing on the energy that it delivers into the target than the mass.
    Say that last sentence again:
    You’ll notice that the mass component of the KE equation is halved, whereas the velocity component is squared. For this reason, the velocity of the projectile has far more bearing on the energy that it delivers into the target than the mass.
    Gunshot wounds in humans cause two different types of injury channels caused by two different forces:
    First is the permanent cavity. This is the area that actually is touched by the projectile. So, for any given equal gunshot wound, the bigger AK round will cause more permanent cavity damage than the 5.56….every single time.
    However, the second and far larger area of damage is the “Temporary Cavity Channel” which is formed by the transfer of energy generated by the speed the projectile traveled. The faster the round, the bigger the temporary wound cavity will be.
    At 300 yards or less, the 5.56 not only holds it’s own against the AK round, it surpasses the AK round in damage to certain areas of the body, such as lung shots, major joint shots, gut shots, etc.
    The advantage the AK round has at 300 yards or less is shooting someone that’s behind cover. The 5.56 sounds like it’s hitting the concrete block wall hard, the AK round takes a small fist sized chunk of block every lick which isn’t gonna help the soldier standing behind said block wall be combat effective at all.
    That being said, I agree with the opinions of the many combat vet marines I’ve put the question to “If you could carry any battle rifle what would it be?” To a man, over a span of twenty years, the 18 odd marines I’ve asked said under 300-500 yards the M-16 and M-4. Every one said the same thing as to why: Because from the sound of first contact to putting rounds on target the M-16 was by the quickest and easiest. A couple marines said with their optics, they could snapshoot head size targets at 150 yards almost like pistols.
    In combat, the quicker you react to the sound of contact by putting accurate fire on target, the better off you are.
    I like and own both platforms. I think both have their place and live in that place well. I admire both designs, and appreciate what each brings to the table. During my days as a gunners mate, 85-89, I actually did not like the m-16 platform, thought the rifle and the round were to combat arms what the ford pinto was to American car engineering, and could not be paid enough money to be seen in public with such a substandard, underpowered, over engineered piece of firearm faggotry.
    Now, while the ak has remained unchanged, time has seen the m-16 platform improve vastly in quality, availibility, modularity. While it’s record during almost 20 years of ground combat proves that the 5.56 round thrives when used in ranges under 300 yards.
    To conclude: The following link is to a business insider article written by a combat surgeon with years of experience with wounds from both calibers explaining why he would rather be shot with an AK versus an AR….complete with science and math, logic, and pictures.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/ak-47-wound-over-an-m4-2015-12

    • eagletuba February 17, 2021 at 06:51

      I agree with you 100%. That said, I don’t use 7.62×39 because of its’ effect on bodies, but rather for its’ ability to punch through brush in my AO (coastal Carolina swampland).

    • Mike February 17, 2021 at 07:01

      I agree with you 100%. That said, I don’t use 7.62×39 because of its’ effect on bodies, but rather for its’ ability to punch through brush in my AO (coastal Carolina swampland)

  12. Pro_OpFor October 19, 2019 at 18:18

    Long time lurker. First post. I agree with Mr Bracken. I think they’ll rely heavily on drone support. And avoid detection will be tricky. Especially in areas lacking thick overhead cover. I’d recommend doing ones own research, however the concept is interesting. I cant imagine it lasting more than a couple hours with heat transfer but might could get one in and out safely?
    https://youtu.be/rW0upku1HIQ

  13. jackalope March 27, 2020 at 00:44

    Sorry about the necro-post. I just wanted to mention the Larue Tactical MBT-2S trigger is a hell of a deal at $80. And it’s been a great trigger in my AR308 so far. Smooth and crisp. I may put one in my LMT Defender 2000 as the stock trigger is just a heavy GI type that hasn’t broken in as well as I like.

    • Missile Farmer February 17, 2021 at 19:54

      I have built multiple-ARs, the Larue MBT-2S trigger is in all of them and they shoot very smoothly and consistently. The SPR that I am currently putting together has a Larue trigger on order, and the price has bumped up from $80 to $87, but it is still an excellent trigger for a great price. I can’t recommend it highly enough.

  14. […] THE MOTHER OF ALL BUFFALO JUMPS The SPR: AR Guerrilla Sniper Rifle TEOTWAWKI – Comms […]

  15. Raven tactical May 20, 2020 at 09:08

    I agree with you on that. Having a machinist square the upper and match the barrel will help as well.
    Primary arms is a good company and solid optics.

  16. Anonymous September 27, 2020 at 15:35

    4.5

Comments are closed.

GUNS N GEAR

Categories

Archives

Spread the love