The Eugene Stoner Tapes: Parts 1-8 From the Smithsonian Institute Archives

“This video is one of many in a series created from an interview conducted by Edward C. Ezell with Eugene Stoner in 1988 at ARES Inc. in Port Clinton, Ohio. All the footage is courtesy of the Smithsonian Institution Archives. All I have done is try to fix the audio and cut some of the waiting time between tapes out. So otherwise, what you are seeing is entirely unadulterated. Feel free to ask any questions about the various topics of the video in the comments. I will do my best to answer them.” Bakelite and Waffles Youtube Channel

 

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About the Author: Johnny Paratrooper

Born and Raised in Baltimore City, Maryland. History Degree. 8 Years Airborne Infantry and Scouts Platoon. Iraq Veteran. 4-5 Years as a doorman, bar back, and bouncer in Baltimore. Worked in Construction, Heavy Equipment Demolition, Corporate Security, Sales, Forest Service contractor, and the Hospitality Industry. Raised Catholic. Hobbies are race cars and sport bikes. Side projects are HAM radio credentials and long range shooting. MY EMAIL IS [email protected]. Founder of Green Dragon Academy https://www.patreon.com/GreenDragonAcademy

15 Comments

  1. amous November 22, 2021 at 04:04

    Part Four?

    • Johnny Paratrooper November 22, 2021 at 13:44

      Updated and reformatted for better visual. Thanks.

  2. CPL Antero Rokka November 22, 2021 at 05:01

    Wonderful!

    “Saint Eugene!”

    …and his majic black polymer stick!

    • Johnny Paratrooper November 22, 2021 at 13:49

      Not a fan? I think the AR series of rifles is going to be around for 200-300 years.
      Only a significant shift in material sciences and manufacturing will change that prediction.
      As well as a different system for projection. Thus far the unitary metallic cartridge is still king and has yet to be dethroned.

  3. Johnny Paratrooper November 22, 2021 at 13:44

    Updated. Thanks. Usually my attention to detail is much better than that.

  4. E/325 November 22, 2021 at 19:11

    I listened to parts 1-4 today while working and found it all very interesting. The stories he told about the Army’s fucked up behavior throughout the m-16 development, testing and finally supplying ammo to soldiers in Vietnam was typical of the kind of behavior I witnessed during my time in the 82nd. That kind of behavior was a motivating factor in my decision not to re-enlist. Sure, you run into that shit in civilian life, but the likelihood of it costing you your life is slim. The petty decision to set up the rifle for failure by fucking up the ammo supply sent to soldiers in combat certainly did cost lives. The behavior I witnessed in the army was equally criminal and a systematic feature of the army. My decision to get out was based on not wanting to have my life sacrificed to some fuckers petty behavior.
    The other thing I found interesting was his opinion on the m-16a2 changes. We started to get the a2 during my last year in the 82nd. Like Stoner, I recognized that the adjustable rear sights were unnecessary for a basic combat weapon. In my opinion the a1 sights are completely adequate and far more robust than the a2 rear sight. I also agree with him that the burst selector was a completely stupid idea that was likely intended to save ammo. Which is really a mechanical device to take the place of proper training. Adequate training was always in short supply during my enlistment.

    This was a really great post full of fantastic information.

    • Johnny Paratrooper November 22, 2021 at 19:38

      I liked the Burst Feature. It was effective to 200 meters in my testing. 300 if you could lean into a supported position.

      On the topic of the adjustable sights, the military released lots of different types of ammo. And the adjustable sight made sense to compensate for the different zeroes.

      It also gave you the option for a Combat zero. Which is pretty effective.

  5. E/325 November 22, 2021 at 23:11

    I’m sure the sights worked for you, but I doubt the average troop would ever bother to make the adjustment in combat.
    With a little training, performing a three round burst is easy to do without the mechanical device. While it’s rarely needed, the full auto option was needlessly eliminated.

    • Johnny Paratrooper November 23, 2021 at 03:48

      Combat Zero allows someone to zero out the rear sight on a weapon that is not their own, and then dial in their “Combat Zero”. Which is possible with adjustable sights.
      Previously a tool was required for the M16A1. Though I have never personally handled one.

      Full auto serves no purpose in a lightweight weapon with a 20 round magazine. The magazine only lasts 1 second on a 600-750 RPM weapon.

      A soldier moving to cover during an IMT requires 3-5 seconds for a bound.
      Burst fire achieves this goal while maintaining an effective margin of accuracy.

  6. E/325 November 23, 2021 at 07:58

    You’re generally right about full auto usefulness, or lack of it. In the 80s we had 30 round magazines and were trained to use full auto primarily in the initiation of an ambush. With two or three mags at the ready, the point was to dump as much lead into the kill zone as possible in a very short amount of time. Then, as you are obviously aware, assault through it.
    The other two uses we were trained to do, were laying a base of fire so others could move, and finally in room clearing. These two were used with three round bursts just as you would with a sub gun. Again, the three round burst can be learned without the mechanical device.

    I agree with your point of the enhanced ease of achieving the battle sight zero. However, like Stoner mentioned, the ease of adjustability also increases the possibility of unintended mid-adjustment. I’m not sure the trade off is worth it. In the thick of high action, I would assume that most would not have the presence of mind or the time to make the adjustment to battle sight zero. Instead, one would likely wait for a lull of action to do so. At which time access to adjustment tools can be had. In our case they were in the form of a bullet tip or old dental tools we kept in our cleaning kit. I never once saw the actual manufactured sight tool until I got out of the army.

    I’m curious, how often did you witness troops with mis-adjusted sights or having had broken that wobbly ass sight assembly after dropping the weapon on the ground or banging it against something? Or is your experience in combat limited to the use of flat top receivers with optics? Were you also trained to have a battle sight zero for optics? I’ve never in my life had to adjust for battle sight zero outside of the training environment for any sighting system I’ve ever used. So my inquiring mind wants to know.
    Teach us Master Yoda…

  7. Jack Lawson November 23, 2021 at 21:14

    When I was 28, I had a long telephone conversation with Eugene Stoner during the time he was working on what he described to me as a ‘chain gun’ cannon system, at Cadillac Gauge Company. I think this was something like the Bushmaster 25MM Cannon, a la General Motors version’s entry into the automatic cannon race at that time. He tried to explain what it was, but I couldn’t grasp the concept.

    I pestered him, calling some 20 times, until he finally called me back at my sister’s house, where I was staying… dead broke and living in her basement. I’d sent him my drawings on a caseless cartridge assault rifle that I’d designed focusing around the Daisy Company’s (BB guns) caseless cartridge that they had worked on for years. My design worked by the same principles of the Wankel Rotary Engine and had high impact plastic throw away magazines.

    The West German Army adopted a caseless cartridge assault rifle design remotely similar to this dumb farm kid’s Wankel type action design, but the Communists gave up the ghost before it got put into manufacture by Heckler & Koch.

    I laugh now thinking of how naive I was back then… and how fortunate I was to talk with a brilliant man like Eugene Stoner. He was no bullshytte and to the point. I wish I had a recording of the conversation… it lasted probably 40 minutes.

    He took a caring attitude towards me and said what I’d come up with was basically ‘outside the box’ and very good, but he told me to go to Aeronautical Engineering School and forget putting effort into weapons designs. Like he’d been screwed… he didn’t want me to waste my life trying to follow in the weapon design ‘greats’ footsteps. He seemed to pour out his soul to me warning me as a caring Father would.

    Then I sat mesmerized as he told me about the political atmosphere and retired military General Officers influencers with Remington, Winchester, Colt and especially at the Springfield Armory, where the majority of testing and acceptance decisions on U.S. Military small arms were made back then.

    How this network of back scratching ‘old boys’ totally controlled what was bought and accepted… whether it was serviceable, good, shytte, would culminate in deaths of brave American soldiers… or whatever. He said their greed and deceit knew no bounds.

    He mentioned the T48 design (The Liege Fabrique Nationale forerunner of the FN Rifle), which was superior to anything on the market and how 5,000 were purchased by the U.S. for testing, but were bypassed for the M14 design which was pushed by Springfield Armory and adopted. This was one reason he designed the AR10… as a superior alternative to the M14 he said. Light weight and much more compact.

    He was astounded that John Garand was treated so much better than he was and made a sizeable sum from his designs. He told me he thought the Army Small Arms Board and manufacturers were asleep at the switch because of the drastic reduction of the size of the army and the disastrous economics that affected manufacturers during Garand’s 1930s design period zenith for the M1 Garand. That, versus the powers that were who treated him (Stoner) like a criminal obstacle regarding his designs.

    He further told me Colt froze him out of the royalties for the AR 15 (M16, M4 and all the variants) by preventing acceptance of the design until they held the patent. He said he was given an ultimatum by Colt… a lump sum of $103,000 for the design patents… or NOTHING. He bitterly took the money, even though it was a substantial sum back then… but quickly regretted it as soon the Army, not just the Air Force under General LeMay’s insistence, adopted the AR series he’d designed. Like 30,000,000 rifles later today… he got cheated out of a fortune even back then.

    He also argued against their adaptation of the 5.56 MM cartridge. I read somewhere later that the army’s approval of the use of extremely corrosive recycled cannon powder for the new small cartridge, plus the Vietnam climate and no chrome lining of barrels, should have had some of these corrupt General Officers and armaments executives hung by the neck until dead.

    I was privileged to have talked to him… he kept me from wasting years of my life… giving me the no holds gritty reality of small arms and the U.S. design and acceptance process. Instead, I spent my time in 1RLI Support Commando for years. Unfortunate outcome… but time well spent fighting the good fight.

    Jack Lawson
    Associate Member, Sully H. deFontaine Special Forces Association Chapter 51, Las Vegas, Nevada
    Author of “The Slaver’s Wheel”, “A Failure of Civility,” “And We Hide From The Devil,” “Civil Defense Manual” and “In Defense.”

    “As we fought for the ideals of freedom and for those on the left and right of us, we judged each other only by the most important of characteristics… nerve, courage and the willingness to stand in harm’s way for others… those abstract values that transcend the color of skin or the shape of eyes. During this respite from human pettiness, whatever our race, creed or ethnicity, at that time we were one.” – An anonymous Special Operations soldier

    • NC Scout November 23, 2021 at 21:25

      This is incredible. Thanks Brother!!

    • Johnny Paratrooper November 23, 2021 at 22:02

      Have you written your Autobiography yet?
      Also, I have a design for a Chassis System.
      It’s badass for sure. Namely because it subverts expectations, markets, economics, and (Most Importantly) the letter of the law.

  8. Jack Lawson November 24, 2021 at 18:09

    Johnny,

    You’ve been reading it. I’m writing it and posting it piece by piece (joke).

    Jack L

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